Let's talk generators
 

A generator purchase is next up on my priority list of larger prep items. I have a family of four. I would like to run a small refrigerator at a minimum and I'm sure it would be used for other uses as required during the day/night (power tools, recharging, lighting). Tell me what I am forgetting. I am not expecting it to power my house or even a significant portion of it.

1) What is a minimum realistic and an optimal wattage size (based on the above requirements) that I should be looking at? Keep in mind that I will be running at least one electric / compressor motor on it. For those with experience - how many outlets do you recommend and at what amperage?

2) Diesel or Gasoline? A local guy has a new in box Triton 5500 diesel for sale for $700 FRNs which got me wondering about diesel vs gas and the merits of each.) Will diesel fuel store longer than gas (assume stabilizer in both)? I also have natural gas at my house, but I'm not sure I can count on that fuel supply if shtf.

3) Makes / models recommended or to avoid. I know Honda makes decent engines. I have seen Subaru engines on some recently.

Thanks

Re: Let's talk generators
 

If you have a well be sure to size your gen as such. Gas/diesel is a matter of logistics based on what you want to do. I have no dcell rigs, so I went gas.....and lotsa Stabil.
Common gens have near instant parts support. Don't forget power distribution requirements (cables). If you don't know 110/220, get hip quick. Nothing real tough, but book learning during an outage is a bummer.
Luck.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I'd plan for the generator also charging batteries to run things most of the time. (Charge a bank of batteries in 4 hours and run the necessary stuff off the batteries for 72 hours or something along those lines.)

Re: Let's talk generators
 

After Ike hit Houston, 3 days in I found a 2-cycle generator 1,000 watts. It would not run my fridge but would do the TV and a fan. Few days later, I bought a 5,500 watt generator, it would run the fridge, TV, several lights and fans. If your going to get one, shell out the money and get a good one with at least 5,000 watts. I was without electricity for 13 days after the storm and that generator was a life saver.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

First off...a normal household outlet is rated for 15amps or 1725watts...so you can either guesstamate from that or look at the amp ussage of each item you might want to connect to the genny at the same time and muptiply amps X voltage(115) =watts this will help you determine the size of genny you need


as far as gennys...90% of small portable common generators turn at a constant 3600rpms so they tend to use a lot of fuel and make a lot of noise. Any thing diesel should cost more and have a longer engine life and be easier to store fuel for for small gennys a critical life issue is the amount of oil they contain and if they have any sort of oil filtration.

The issue is you will have a small engine turning 3600rpms (full bore) for hours on end and the oil needs to be changed very OFTEN

as you increase in cost you can buy standard generators that turn at lower speeds IE 1800 rpms...use less fuel make less noise and have longer engine lifes but cost MUCH more


The other 10% of generators are what is called a Inverter generator by design they turn at a engine speed that matches the amp load placed on them for example at a 10amp load they may turn 1500rpms and at a 5amp load they may turn 750rpms. So they have potientially a much less fuel ussage and much longer engine life but they also cost MUCH more these style generators are substancially quieter and lighter weight also

I own all types of generators and regularly use them

I really no longer use the standard gas powered portable generator any more due to long term cost and effeciency and reliablility

I use trailer mounted diesels for major construction sites 25kw>
I use various sized Inverter Gennys for portable work 1kw>6.5kw
For my home back-up i use a inline auto switched propane genny 17kw
For farm i use either a portable or a Tractor PTO genny 1kw-25kw

the cheap standard gennys are great in my opinion for very sparodic ussage IE once every couple of year multi day outage

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I've been in the market for a generator for quite a while. It's one of things where there more I learn, the harder it is to make a decision. There is give and take with each type and size of generator.

1) Buy a Kill-a-watt meter and do an energy audit of your house. Plug every damn thing into it and see how much power it uses. Read labels on equipment to find the start power on anything with electric motors.

2) Can you count on ANY fuel supply in a SHTF scenario? I love diesel engines, but I'm leaning towards a Nat Gas setup for my primary home use. A secondary diesel could come later. A gas generator would be my last consideration.

3) I've seen the little Honda inverter generators in action. Very quiet! For a diesel, I'd lean toward one of the major manufacturers. Finding a mil-surp diesel would be ideal. I'd recommend staying away from the $700 Chinese crap.

As for natural gas units, I still haven't made up my mind so I'm of no help

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Natural gas would be a good choice if there was a total
break down of the system and other fuels were gone.

IF you happen to live in a oil producing area, where
you can tap casing gas off a well.

Some of us do have that choice. :biggrin:

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Bought one of those chinamart 2 cycle 2 hp generators at deep discount for $80 last year and it will run my large 8 amp fridge/with ice maker with a 50' large extension cord. Will run everything else in the house seperately. Had no problems running my computor also. Bought another one this year at a even greater discount when I got a chance for $76.
Burns a gallon of gas in six hours at full load. Weighs only 38 pounds if you want to throw one on your bug out buggy. Think it says it is putting out 58 db, fairlyquiet. Worth thinking about IMHO

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I may try one of those......being 2stroke it would eliminate the need for oil changes .......on a 4stroke oil changes become a issue if they arnt large enough to have a oil filter

how many watts?

how long have you ran it continueous

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Just bought this. I have about 100lbs of propane stored which is safer than gas.

At 3500 peak output it's enough to start the compressor on my fridge.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...ctId=100669122

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Where do you buy these?

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Re: Let's talk generators
 

TTAZZMAN I agree with you,

We've had lots of generators, since we produce our own power, no power line out this far. I have 3 little honda gas 5500 watt, they wear out way to quick, high rpm and loud, and the oil changing all the time. 2 are broke down right now. I do keep one in the back of a truck with the aircompresser ( not used to often).

A china diesel for the shop 12 kw (just a tank) 12 years still running.
Izusu diesel 20kw for the house backup. ( 3 hours one gallon)
MQ diesel on a trailer to pump the well.
Old propane generator, that thing used 5 gallons an hour. it just sits now

I would say diesel works best for us.


You might want to check with equipment rental places too. the sell their older generators. might get a good deal.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

An enterprising team of GIM'mers could make a fortune off designing and building a series of small, reliable diesel generators.

*anyone heard of these guys?

http://www.hardydiesel.com/diesel-ge...ins-14-kw.html

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Yes,

That is where we bought our china diesel.( they weren't called hardy diesel back then)

I was gonna post a link, but I didn't know what state he was in and I don't know how to post a link anyhow.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I have a 5.5kw Gen which uses Gasoline and Natural Gas, easy to find Natural Gas in Louisiana, it sets in the front yard and is waiting to serve you. During Gustave I was paying 51 a day for GASOLINE and 17 a day for Natural Gas.

Dual Fuel Info:

http://www.uscarb.com


Very informative.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

How long of an event are you prepping for?

I have a man-crush on the Honda EU series of generators. I have two, the EU2000 and the EU 6500.

The EU2000 is a great little rig. As mentioned they are inverter grade and supposly put out a pure sine wave very similar to utility power. Street price is $900. It will essentially run any one item you can plug into a standard 110V duplex receptacle. It will run my refrigerator, TV and a few lights with no problems. Alternately I can plug my 8500 btu portable air conditioner into it and keep a room cool, or run a circular saw. Two units can be daisy-chained to provide 4kw output. It also makes a great companion for tailgating or car camping. The unit weighs fifty lbs, It is so quiet you can have a conversation standing over it and your neighbor won't hear it running. Fuel efficiency is excellent. Running the aforementioned appliances I get about eight hours on a single gallon of gas. I take it on disaster relief mission to power radio equipment overnight and it's never run out of gas overnight.

The EU2000s have a cult following. Some brag of putting thousands of hours on the units with no problems. People out there have created mods for the units such as Trifuel conversion kits and extended run tanks to connect five gallon outboard motor tanks. Again, if a long term TSHTF fuel could become scarce and this will be the generator I pull out. I'll plug it into the fridge until we eat or preserve the fresh foods that will spoil. then, I would plan to run it a couple hours a day to charge DC batteries.

The EU2000 does not provide 220V, so if you need a well pump or want to power a stick welder you'll need a bigger unit.

Just recently I picked up a nearly new EU6500 from an individual on Craigslist. It is a great rig, not portable but still very quiet and fuel efficient for it's size. It has an on-board wattmeter. A week ago, we had a "power out" night for a few hours to test the unit out. I was surprised at how little electricity I actually used. I have a forced air natgas furnance and the wattmeter was showing an average load on the house at around 2kw. This was the TV, furnace, computer, fridge,chest freezer, a few lights, and any other devices that might be pulling phantom loads. We could even run one stove element and the usage went to 4kw. It was nice to be able to flip on any switch in the house and everything worked. Obviously it is too small for Central Air, but we have a portable A/C we plan to use. My plan is to use the 6500 for short term events where I expect things to get back to normal in a few days, winter storm, hurricane, etc.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Go ahead and put tazman and any other retard into the full of sh#i pile who blab about 2 stroke generators.

While your at it throw out the cheap chink genny palm palm waving people.

Honda or yamaha,you dont have enough money to buy enough fuel to burn one out.

If you do have money.

REPUTABLE low idle diesel.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I have a propane/gasoline generator. My farmer brother-in-law complains about the filters he consumes running his tractor due to the algae that constantly grows in his diesel fuel. So diesel isn't truly long-term reliable. Gasoline is common, but even with Stabil starts to degrade after a year. So I went with with propane. Infinite lifespan. And the generator also does gasoline, so I have a backup if necessary. I also have a battery bank of six deep discharge golf-cart batteries, a 6KW inverter, and a marine battery charger. Allows me to run my core stuff while the generator rests.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

The Titan that I am referring to is made in America and he is asking about 25% of retail.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Honda EU units are the best out there, I have put 5000 plus hours on an old EU unit and I got it used. It is very quite, no one can hear it running, which is important to me since you do not want everyone to know you have a generator.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

1000 watt, 1200 watt start-up; haven't ran one more than a day to see what they will run[gagged on 12-15 amp circular saws, just a little slow with a 10 amp electric chainsaw]. Live only 5 miles from a 500 megawatt coal plant and 4 days from a very bad ice storm is the longest power has been out here in the last 60 years. These are almost "throw away" at that price so i bought two. If they save a freezer full of food, they are paid for. Then again they seem very well built and I have ran 2 cycle chainsaw motors that same size for DECADES

Re: Let's talk generators
 

The generator will be a good investment. Have you considered solar as an alternative? I am more interested in getting about 500 - 1000 watts of solar together with the appropriate batteries.

Disadvantage - Less 'easy' power. solar is more expensive to get setup, and takes more space. Need a pretty big inverter if you want to run heavy appliances like compressors. Obviously only works when there is decent sun. Limited life on storage batteries (a few years)

Advantage - No fuel storage, unlimited power supply (how long will a coule hundred gallons of fuel last you?), quiet operation (no zombies following the noise / smell of a generator looking for goodies).


Might be worth considering a generator for the big stuff (compressor, well pump, etc.) with some solar complimenting it, eliminating the need to run the genny 90%+ of the time. Couple that with the suggestion of keeping batteries charged off of the generator, and the solar panels can work in tandem using the same set of batteries.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Why did you need to put forth a personal attack? i have no clue why you felt you need to engage in calling me a "retard" . Its obvious from your post you didnt bother to read my posts.......in case you missed it its #5 on the list

Re: Let's talk generators
 

we get a lot of guys around here showing up on jobsites with supposedly distressed equipment...IE new (gennys,powerwashers,etc) and Titan is one of the gennys they try to sell for about 2k ......i have never bought or used one so i have no clue...

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I went to auction and bought a Hobart portable welder/generator from a steel company that went out of business. Had just 600 hours on it and I got it for just $500 with full maintenance records and it runs like a champ...plus, with the leads I got, I can actually weld with it!!!. It produces 10,000kw and is good on fuel. Might be worth looking into one, as they are handy on a farm or even for a retreat.

http://www.hobartwelders.com/product...champion10000/

Here's a BIN for a new one on fleabay for $2400:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hobart-Champion-...item2304a83d9b

Tazzman:

If I was going to spend $2000, it would be for one of these instead of those Titans you are seeing.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Make sure to double check that. All of the Titans I know of are Chinese.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Oh i 100% agree...i was just responding to the previous post on the titan...for us a construction company we have a couple of the older Lincon trailer mtd welder gen combos that would make a good multi-purpose units for a individual. they are heavy duty..have oil filtered engines...they are fuel hogs but have large tanks...but would be great for a person that could use both processes. We laugh at the guys that come around in the PUs saying they have distressed merchandize they need to get rid of quickly its scam scam scam for sure.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I'm off grid and You couldn't melt a titan and pour it on me. I wouldn't own a chinese generator unless it was a big industrial low RPM like Nub is referring to and it was a steal.
I check Craigslist for generators every day and if they don't list the brand I don't click the link because I know it's chinese. Nearly every new generator for sale is chinese. I look for used generators.
Currently have an old Onan gasoline 5KW 1800 RPM and an older 8KW Italian Diesel running an American made generator at 1800 RPM.
I'm leaning toward just getting diesels in the future. Put fuel additive in the diesel and you won't have the filter problems.
In the long term you'll see how many risks you take with gasoline. storing, transporting, filling etc. Diesel is safer and I buy the red dyed diesel which is cheaper and legal for generators.
Older Onans are good quality but the new owners of Onan are gougers on parts.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

One of these would probably last a long, long time - govt surplus for $395.

http://store.colemans.com/cart/2115k...ered-p-80.html

Actually, you can buy 100 of them for $10,000 - $100 apiece.

There's a nice side business for some enterprising GIMmer. Or maybe we could make a group purchase...

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Nah, it's a gasser.

Same place, costs four times as much. Twice as much power, but diesel driven.

http://store.colemans.com/cart/gener...sel-p-903.html

If I'm gonna buy one of these, 3kw is minimum.

I had an M1031, which had a 10kw and it was PTO driven, so I had to run the truck. But it needed more body work that I was willing to put into it.

The guy I sold it to had no problems fixing all the sheet metal, and he paid me more than I had in it. Plus he swapped out the 4.56 gears for 3.53's and it'll run freeway speeds all day long now. So he's a happy camper.

We tried one of the Honda EU series models. NOT CHEAP, but super quiet, which I PROMISE none of the mil surp stuff will EVER be.

But if you like a gas generator, that one is a good one for small applications. It won't run your whole house, but it would keep the reefers and freezers going. Might even let you recharge your PC battery.

But for serious work, 3kw is minimum. And for me, diesel is it.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Wallew, interesting post. I just hooked up a m1028 as my work horse for local stuff. I wish I had that PTO and genset. What is a good GL genset that you can buy for diesel for a 7-10k load? Do you have this kind of insight? Thank you! I was just on this post trying to figure out what I should be looking at on govliq

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I have no experience, but here are some random bits you might need to know:

* 1 horsepower = 746 watts = 6.5 amps at 115 volts
* A motor might draw 2 to 4 times its rated power when starting, but many don't.
* An incandescent lamp or electric heater will draw several times its normal power when first turned on. If your genny won't deliver that much, it just warms slowly.
* It hardly makes sense to use a bazillion watt genny to run a refrigerator. Get a little one for that job.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

My new well pump is 2 HP. NOTHING less than 7KW will run it. I rented a 6750 watt Briggs and stratton generator once and it started it OK and the voltage held at 225, but when I checked it a half hour later the voltage had dropped to 190. I had always thought the start up amp draw was the issue but when the head in the well dropped, the pump had more head pressure to overcome and the load increased.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

On a retreat where large tanks of fuel can be stored, I'm all for a slow speed diesel. I hope to be able to move to a more rural location within a couple of years and will certainly want one.

Right now I live in the suburbs. It is not practical for me to store more than perhaps a drum of fuel. In the suburbs- Fuel efficiency,reliability, & stealth take precedence. Perhaps portability, too if you might have to bug out. The Honda EU2000 fits my need.

Keep in mind when the S really HTF priorities will change quickly. As now seen in Haiti, fuel of any type will become a precious commodity rather quickly. Running a high RPM fuel hog will become progressively more difficult as the fuel supply dwindles. And what will you be doing with that fuel hog? Running your heat pump? Barring well pumps, It'll likely come down to the basics of a couple of lights, a refrigerator( for a few days, anyway), medical equipment, and possibly a means of communication.

Look at the fuel usage of any generator before purchase. For example, according to the owner's manual the Hobart 10K welder/genny uses a minimum of .75 gallons per hour, just to idle. That's 18 gallons to run 24 hours. Or, if it fits your needs, you can run the Honda EU2000 on perhaps two gallons. Multiple that by a two week event- 30 gallons for the Honda- 250 gallons for the Hobart. I know many of you will only run the genny a few hours a day, and that is fine. But this is a SHTF board, and the prospect of very limited supply of fuel is needs to be addressed.

If you're prepping for a three day power outage you can get a big fuel hog, invite your neighbors over, and have a party to the roar of the generator. Alternately, find a hotel room with power. It won't cost much more than the fuel cost for running many whole house generators. But if you are prepping for an event where you could be without power for weeks or months, fuel consumption will be crucial.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Start up amps are the issue. I have no experience with well pumps but if you're drawing a generator thats capable of 9hp down that much with a 2hp motor after its started up then that tells me the motor is working way to hard and you'll end up with a premature failure.

On a related generator note, I hooked replaced a 10hp generator on one of our carriage drive systems at work this week. The old one was going bad, burning through brushes way to fast, lots of sparking, and I was getting some burn marks on the commutator in two spots 180 degrees apart. We also found the output shaft bearing was going bad. This was a shunt wound motor which is pully driven off the 250hp dc generator. It supplies the field for the 250hp dc motor that drives the carriage and the field for the amplidyne which controls the output of the generator to the motor. The whole system was built with old surplus militarty equipment by an outfit called genco thats long since been out of business. For the most part they just keep humming along. I just need to get my hands on a 7kw amplidyne for a spare. If anyone has any leeds on them let me know. I'm also in the market for a 250hp 600rpm 3 phase induction motor.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

How about this 10KW genny on a trailer. Has two hours on it.

http://www.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD

Located at Wright Patterson in Ohio. Auction starts on 1/26.

It will probably go for between $500 - $1000. It might go for less, but I doubt it, given it's low hours.

And being on a trailer means it easy to position and then reposition if necessary.

And it's diesel.

The only thing I would want electricity for would be to power refrigeration and possibly to recharge battery powered devices and occasionally firing up the comm/entertainment system. Light is covered. Heat and the ability to cook is covered.

Hopefully that means a couple of hours a day. During the winter, less hopefully. But that's just me.

And yah, any of the Honda EU models are sweet. Super quiet. Easy to use and they sip fuel for sure.

Not that I wouldn't mind one of those, but for the same price as the mil surp 10kw diesel on the trailer, I think I'd go with the mil surp one. But that's just me. I love green iron.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

That's not what my Fluke meter says. The static level of the well is about 400 feet. But after it flows a half hour the static level is down to 560'. That's a lot more work than starting, I guess.Maybe amp draw per HP varies with motor design, I don't know. It's possible that the long skinny shape of well pump motors is not as efficient. I talked to 2 guys at local generator sales shops and they both say that 6KW will not carry a 2HP well pump on startup.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

At 120v
A 2 HP motor full load amp draw should be between 19
and 23 amps.

At 220v
About half of the 120v amp draw.

Plus the voltage drop of the power cord from the gen
set.
Also the wire length to the pump comes into play.

How deep is your pump ?

You are pulling down to 560' so your pump is deeper,
that is a long wire run, so you will need a larger gen set
to make up for the voltage drop.

IMO
The wire run to your pump is eating into the power needed
for the pump. That is at the least a 1120' circuit from
the well head to the pump.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Good point on the length and size of the wire run Golddust. What I meant by start up amps are the issue is that when you're sizing a generator for your motor loads you have to take into account the inrush current for inductive loads which is a few times over the full load amps of the motor, so once you've got that motor running your amp draw goes down. If you have access to a multimeter with an amp clamp I'd check how many amps your pump is drawing and check that against the nameplate full load amps the motor is rated for. It just seems suspect that an almost 7kw generator couldn't power a 1.5kw (2hp) load.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

My 3/4HP well pump (170 feet deep) running from my 6kw inverter pulls a steady 170 amps at 12 volts. I was told by the electrician who wired it that at startup it would probably pull for 1/2 second 5x that current.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

580'.
Now I'm wondering if the wire is heavy enough for the distance.
I don't have an amp clamp. It seems odd that it takes a 12 horsepower generator to run a 2 HP pump. That's a 6 to one ratio.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

What size are you using now??

And yes it does seem you would do better
if you up the wire size to as large as you can
get away with and afford.

Larger wire = Less amp draw and loss to heat in the wires

Even if it means to run very large wires down and then
do a splice to the wire size your pump can handle.

Running a motor at a lower voltage than it was designed
for , is asking to shorten the life of the motor. IMHO


Edit:
And would guess that you are not getting the full
2HP that you think you have. With what you are running
now.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I'll have to check. It puts out the rated 5 GPM flawlessly.

Let's talk three phase
 

It may be that something is wrong with my well pump motor. If I have to replace it should I install a 3 phase motor?
I was thinking of doing this in the begining. When I worked offshore we had 480 volt 3 phase on just about everything but the quarters and control circuits. Those 480 volt motors lasted forever under the worst conditions and were supplied by skinny wires.

A friend of mine said he'd sell me a cheap 3 phase generator but when I looked at it I discovered that it was only 208 volt 3 phase so I backed off. I have since noticed that most older 3 phase generators are not 480, including military surplus generators.
Are the 208 volt 3 phase generators worthwhile? Would it mean significantly thinner wire? Would it be hard to find a well pump with a 208 volt 3 phase motor?

Re: Let's talk three phase
 

Can not say how worthwhile a 3 Phase would be for normal
use. Unless you have equipment you would want to run that need 3 phase.

If the Gen set is a true 208v , you should be able to break
out 104v from that using a panel box like on your house.

Same for a 220v to get 120v if the gen set does not offer
single phase.

As for life of a 3 phase over a single phase , can not
say, But imho it may be longer, the motor may have
more beef to it.

Your pump is probability is OK, check your wire size first.

As for wire size, if you double your voltage, the amps
get cut in half, so the wire size can be smaller.

But if your pump is 220v single phase, going to 3 phase,
you will still need the same wire size for the pump circuit.

That is from your panel to the motor, both ways.
If your run is say 580' , your wire size needs to be
able to carry the current 1160' to account for voltage
drop and losses.

Edit: Quick google , yes there are 3 phase down hole pumps.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Hoarder, 208V three phase is a very common voltage setup in small industry. It has three 120V legs.OTOH, 240V three phase has two regular and one 200V "high" leg. What that means is that with 208 volt 3ph, every breaker space can be utilized as a plain single pole 120V breaker. Every third space, (the high leg) in a 240 breaker can't be used unless you are using it for three phase application. I use 208 with 25HP motors, no problems. 208 V three phase motors are plentiful, any Grainger or motor distributor supply house will have them. They are generally cheaper than single phase of the same size.

If I bought a three phase generator, 208V is what I would prefer.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

BTW, my Ugly's reference shows a 2hp 230 single phase motor drawing 12 amps at full load, but only 7.5 FLA at 208 3 phase

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Just be aware that residential power is generally single phase. Do you want to lock into a system that won't run on your local line power? If your three phase generator goes down, you'll have no water.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I would take that to mean that a given wire size would carry more horsepower in 208 volt 3 phase than 240 volt single phase. 4 conductors would be required for 208 3 phase, right?

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Yes, to all questions.


Edit:

2 hp, 3 phase full load 6-8 amps.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

My wellhead is almost a quarter mile from the cabin. I'm already using a dedicated generator for the cabin and another for the well. I only run the well pump every two weeks to fill gravity cisterns unless irrigating in the summer.
What I'm thinking is that a MEP-002a military 5kw generator (3 phase/single phase) set up in 3 phase would carry what now requires 8KW single phase.
Military KW ratings are not as generously rated as ones subject to "marketing" so they usually carry 20% more.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Just saw a nameplate on one of those 5KW MEP0002As. It says it is rated for 17.3 amps at 208 3phase

http://www.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD


Also maybe of interest:
http://www.gillettegenerators.com/sizing/sizing03.html

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I went to Franklin's website to try to find info such as locked rotor amps, starting amps etc but they don't disclose it. I doubt that exceeding the generator watts a little bit on start up would be such a big deal since I only start the pump a couple times a month as compared to pumps that kick on and off continuously to maintain pressure on a line.


edit: I found an invoice from the pump company that states that I have 580' of 8-3 with ground wiring. That would be four conductors.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Hoarder, does it happen to say what gauge that wire is?

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I don't like engine generators.

Noisy, smelly, problematic contraptions.

I prefer propane appliances.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I believe that the invoice's 8-3 means AWG-8 wire / 3 conductors (plus ground wire too?)

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Hah, reading comprehension is a great thing. 8 gauge would be less than a 5% voltage drop so you should be good as far as correctly sized conductors.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

It says "8-3 with ground". I take that to mean it has 3 insulated and one non-insulated conductors.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

2 hots for 220 v

1 neutral for 110 v

and 1 ground wire

Re: Let's talk generators
 

you are correct on the wire


here is a wire size calculator...you can plug in all sorts of options and get wire sizes etc...

fwiw i think if i read your info right you needed 6ga wire stead of 8ga but the calculator will convert to 3ph also it also has a link to a voltage drop calculator link on the same pg (very handy site)



http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I'm not an electrician. cgsnetwork asks for "total circuit" info, and amperage. Do they mean amperage down each leg or both added together? Is "total circuit" the depth of the well or both legs added together?

Re: Let's talk generators
 

it would be the amperage used by the 2hp motor total the calculator would do any power division when you choose the voltage

a 2hp motor 240v single phase should draw 10-12amps (or more)

for your existing system as i read it
you would plug in

copper
single phase
240
560'
10amp (or more)

press calculate

get a minnimum wire size of #6

or if you link to the voltage drop calculator and punch in the same #s using 8 awg you get

8.5 voltage drop
7.1%

Re: Let's talk generators
 

What throws me for a loop is they ask for: "One Half The Total Circuit Length". Is that half the depth of the well? If so why ask for half?
cornfused.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

YES 1/2 the circut would be the distance from your breaker box to the pump in the well...

quick laymans explanation of the 1/2 circut.....in your 8/3 wire you have 4 wires.....2...take the power down.....1...comeing back up completes the circut....and 1 is the ground......so the multi-wire down the well is both sides of the circut loop...

hope that makes sense

Re: Let's talk generators
 

OK, so in a 120 volt circuit the run is also 1/2 the circuit. But I'm still making calculations based on what 2 HP motors should draw, not what my Franklin 230 volt motor actually does draw. If I had an amp clamp I would know what it's drawing but if there is voltage drop in the wiring it would not give me an accurate number to do these calculations with.
But anyway, based on 12 amps, I should have #6 wire instead of #8. Do you think the small wire size could be why it draws so much?

Re: Let's talk three phase
 

H,
The mil surp generators that are 480 volts are (I believe) those used to start up aircraft. Generally they are turbine powered.

At least the two I've seen were.

Though to be honest, in watching government auctions now for years, there was a batch of 480 volt generators that came up, but they were in the 60kw range if memory serves. They were all diesel powered and were all on trailers.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Wallew,
My pump wire is one size too small, but it looks like if I went with a 208 volt 3 phase it would work with a true 5KW. There aren't many mil surp auctions in my area so it might take a while to find one (or 3). I'm thinking MEP-002A.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Hoarder, by my calcs your wire size is fine. Besides even if it was one size small that won't make that big of difference at the load size and length of run we're talking about.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Can a 208 v genset power a well pump? I am guessing if it's three phase it's not going to get you straight up 220, but I am not an electrician by any means. I am in same boat, need a genset - my pump guy told me I will 4.5 kw to run the pump. I figure if I got a 10kw unit that would basically take care of it. The genset on the trailer that govliq has looks really perfect for this, I just don't know about the wiring. Please discuss.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

A 208 volt 3 phase generator should do the job more efficiently than a 240 volt single phase. Using a 10 KW for a 4.5 KW load leaves a large margin of error. Hard to go wrong with that unless the fuel consumption is high. You have to decide if you're going to use single or 3 phase before you install the pump.
One disadvantage of having a 3 phase pump is that if your generator bites the dust you can't pump water until you find another 3 phase generator. I plan on having a spare.

What GPM, depth and HP are you going to install?

Re: Let's talk generators
 

The pump is already installed, this is for a backup for my house. I found a manual for the mep003a and output is selectable for 120v I phase 2 wire, 120/240 I phase 3 wire or 208 3 phase 4 wire, so I would assume I can wire it into my circuit breaker and just shut off the power co mains whenever I need to use it if I go with 240v 1phase 3 wire. I was concerned that the 208 volt 3 phase was the only output......

Here is a link to manual http://old.steelsoldiers.com/index.p...d=file&pid=136

After more thought, it seems to me that 10k is a heckuva lot of juice, it might make more sense to get a 5k rig, but then I would probably have to play games with turning off all the other load anytime I wanted to take a shower or flush the toilet and then turning the pump circuit on.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Just to let you guys know.
You can not use a 220 single phase source like this genset to run a two phase 220 motor (or is the pump set up for single phase 220. I highly doubt it though).
You'll smoke the pump motor after it hums and sparks a bit. (well pumps are expensive to replace and can take time to get someone out to pull it up out the well)
Transformers coming from the pole are usually three phase with two of those phases and a neutral going to your meter.
The windings in a sinlge phase are completely different than the windings in a dual phase motor.
Read up on the Y and or delta transformer configuration to understand what I'm talking about.
You have to have matching phases.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Thanks trump. I knew there had to be a catch on these things.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Just took a peek at the spec plate on
that military gen set.

They do both,
208 single and 3 phase.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

If the pump is two phase 220v neither a single phase 220 or three phase 220 will work.
It will hum and start to smoke.
You cannot put single phase into a motor that two phase or visa versa.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I doubt anyone has a 2 phase pump. Aside from some commercial lighting applications it doesn't exist.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Yes you could break it out, but what would the voltage be?
You can still burn a motor for having not enough voltage.

They do make fairly affordable transformers that take 2 phases and make a third leg for things that requires three phase from a two phase grid (same output voltage).
I see a lot of these on farms where a farmer goes to an auction and buys tooling that requires three phases.
A friend bought up a 1948 bridgeport mill that had three phase motors. He solved his problem with buying one of these third leg transformers and didnt have to replace the motor with a two phase.
I'm sure they make transformers to match what you are needing.
After all these gensets were probably used on the civilian side at one time or another.
Check around.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

After thinking about it and doing a search.

Do agree with you.

2 phase water well pumps are like hen's
teeth.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Where did the discussion of two phase come up?

the concerns of a three phase generator breakdown are valid. Just a thought- You could buy a VFD (AC Drive)to be a backup to the three phase generator- something like:

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...AC%29/GS2-22P0

Re: Let's talk generators
 

It's happened before. You start talking about 3 phase and then switch to single phase 240 volts which has 2 legs compared to 3 on 3 phase and people get cornfused and refer to 240 volt single phase as 2 phase.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

The farm I grew up here in Iowa uses a two phase 220v well pump. The well pipe is 5 inch casings at 125 feet deep with the pump at 105 feet.
110v at that distance from the transformer wont have enough voltage or current to run the pump without smoking it or drastically shortening its life span.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

The genset only puts out single or 3 phases...................wont work on a 2 phase 220v pump.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Early days it was used,
Had to refresh my memory
banks,

Ref:
http:///en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Cant be a single phase if you have two legs.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Copy from wiki so I didn't have to type it out myself.

Three-wire, 120/240 volt single phase power used in the USA and Canada is sometimes incorrectly called "two-phase". The proper term is split phase or 3-wire single-phase.

Two phase is obsolete by almost 100 years now.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Two-phase electric power

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
<!-- start content --> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Alternator.jpg http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/...gnify-clip.png
A simplified diagram of a two-phase alternator


Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th century polyphase alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits were used, with voltage phases differing by 90 degrees. Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently, three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and field assemblies, with windings physically offset by 90 electrical degrees to provide two-phase power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the largest generators in the world at the time and were two-phase machines.
The advantage of two-phase electrical power was that it allowed for simple, self-starting electric motors. In the early days of electrical engineering, it was easier to analyze and design two-phase systems where the phases were completely separated. <sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup> It was not until the invention of the method of symmetrical components in 1918 that polyphase power systems had a convenient mathematical tool for describing unbalanced load cases. The revolving magnetic field produced with a two-phase system allowed electric motors to provide torque from zero motor speed, which was not possible with a single-phase induction motor (without extra starting means). Induction motors designed for two-phase operation use the same winding configuration as capacitor start single-phase motors.
Three-phase electric power requires less conductor mass for the same voltage and overall amount of power, compared with a two-phase four-wire circuit of the same carrying capacity. <sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> It has all but replaced two-phase power for commercial distribution of electrical energy, but two-phase circuits are still found in certain control systems.
Two-phase circuits typically use two separate pairs of current-carrying conductors. Alternatively, three wires may be used, but the common conductor carries the vector sum of the phase currents, which requires a larger conductor. Three phase can share conductors so that the three phases can be carried on three conductors of the same size. In electrical power distribution, a requirement of only three conductors rather than four represented a considerable distribution-wire cost savings due to the expense of conductors and installation.
Two-phase power can be derived from a three-phase source using two transformers in a Scott connection. One transformer primary is connected across two phases of the supply. The second transformer is connected to a center-tap of the first transformer, and is wound for 86.6% of the phase-to-phase voltage on the 3-phase system. The secondaries of the transformers will have two phases 90 degrees apart in time, and a balanced two-phase load will be evenly balanced over the three supply phases.
Three-wire, 120/240 volt single phase power used in the USA and Canada is sometimes incorrectly called "two-phase". The proper term is split phase or 3-wire single-phase.
[edit] See also

• Polyphase system
• Rotary Converter

[edit] References

Specific references:

1. ^ Thomas J. Blalock The first polyphase system - a look back at two-phase power for ac distribution, in IEEE Power and Energy Magazine,March-April 2004, ISSN 1540-7977 pg. 63
2. ^ Terrell Croft and Wilford Summers (ed), American Electricans' Handbook, Eleventh Edition, McGraw Hill, New York (1987) ISBN 0-07-013932-6 page 3-10, figure 3-23

General references:

• Donald G. Fink and H. Wayne Beaty, Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers, Eleventh Edition,McGraw-Hill, New York, 1978, ISBN 0-07-020974-X
• Edwin J. Houston and Arthur Kennelly, Recent Types of Dynamo-Electric Machinery, copyright American Technical Book Company 1897, published by P.F. Collier and Sons New York, 1902

<!-- NewPP limit report Preprocessor node count: 77/1000000 Post-expand include size: 212/2048000 bytes Template argument size: 0/2048000 bytes Expensive parser function count: 0/500 --> <!-- Saved in parser cache with key enwiki:pcache:idhash:1047944-0!1!0!default!!en!2 and timestamp 20100115164737 --> Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power"
Categories: Electricity distribution

Re: Let's talk generators
 

nm, wouldn't post like I typed it.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Spend a day at the farm and come back to 2phase power.......

AINT NO 2phase power currently being produced that i am aware of in the US......(unless there is some antique's somewhere)

Its either single phase ......or three phase......

Hoarder.......wire size is like PIPE size in pumping water the pressure is the same as the pipe size gets smaller or the pipe length gets longer your not getting as many gallons of water out the hose end any more.....

The voltage drop calculator on that site is telling you with a #8 wire your down 7% if 7% isnt a issue your fine.......if you have been running the pump for a long time with no issues then i would say your fine

you mentioned a generator that produces both single and three phase....I have those kind of generators mine is a trailer mounted 100kw diesel gen we use to power buildings during down times or outages......at least in the Gens we have the KW rating is different for single or 3 phase....so be careful and check the KW rating on both types of power.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I hadn't thought of that.
I looked up the ratings on the MEP-002A military generator I was interested in and it didn't specify if the 5KW rating was for both single and 3 phase, so presumably it's the same for both.

http://www.govliquidation.com/auctio...lotNumber=6413

Re: Let's talk generators
 

i dont have a clue.....but Onan Dba Cummins Power Generation...the manufactorer are first class all the way for generators

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Re: Let's talk generators
 

Just thought I would clarify something to those still discussing three phase power/generators at their retreat:

You can buy a three phase electrical panel (breaker box)at any electrical supply house that supplies commercial components. They don't have them at Home Depot or Lowe's. But if you connect 208V three phase generator to this panel you can use it just like a normal residential panel. A single pole breaker has 110V, dual pole breakers have 220V single phase. In all respects it is just like a normal residential panel. If you buy the right brand (square D, GE)you can even use the same single and two pole breakers found at the big boxes hardware stores. It's only when you install and use a three pole breaker that you have utilized three phase power. You don't need separate panels or systems, just a single three phase panel will meet all your needs. Three phase panels are more expensive than residential panels, but you can find them on ebay if you're patient.

What I doubt is that an electrical utility would hook single phase service to a three phase panel. I belive it it would work, but every third breaker space would be dead. But if it is a retreat and gen only, no worries IMO.


The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to have three phase available in the rural workshop. It would give you the ability to run some fairly large motors if the need arises.

Re: Let's talk generators
 

I think what they are talking about is coming from the power pole there is only one phase of three phases of a delta configuration (power line transmission. Power poles have three 13,000 volt phases (three wires) and a common neutral (one wire)).

From the power pole you have one wire coming from one side of phase A and a second wire coming from the other side of phase A (no neutral). Just two hots at 13,000 volts to the bucket tranformer hanging on your pole.
That one 13,000v phase is then transformed down to 220v via the round bucket transformer (center tapped tranformer) at your pole.
Coming out of this bucket transformer (secondary winding) and going to your meter you have two hots (220 volts total) and a neutral, three wires total.
The secondary winding of the bucket transformer is center tapped (split) and the tap is grounded making the center tap the neutral leg.
So any genset that is single phase 120/240 (meaning utilizing one phase of the 13,000volts ) and split (three wire out) will work.
But the math (wire size and distance) needs to be done so the genset will provide enough power (watts) at the load (not coming out of the genset but at the location of the load).